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	<title>Comments on: When I die&#8230;.</title>
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	<link>http://westkarana.com/index.php/2009/08/06/when-i-die/</link>
	<description>A blog about EverQuest, EverQuest II and MMORPGs in general</description>
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		<title>By: On Rarity &#171; Tish Tosh Tesh</title>
		<link>http://westkarana.com/index.php/2009/08/06/when-i-die/comment-page-2/#comment-15779</link>
		<dc:creator>On Rarity &#171; Tish Tosh Tesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2009 13:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://westkarana.com/?p=3976#comment-15779</guid>
		<description>[...] that role better than others (maybe because we have to to enjoy ourselves in a world of clones), but in the end, what do we have to show for [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that role better than others (maybe because we have to to enjoy ourselves in a world of clones), but in the end, what do we have to show for [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tipa</title>
		<link>http://westkarana.com/index.php/2009/08/06/when-i-die/comment-page-1/#comment-15511</link>
		<dc:creator>Tipa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 22:25:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://westkarana.com/?p=3976#comment-15511</guid>
		<description>37 isn&#039;t old and yes you can! 

I have this feeling that some day we&#039;ll all wake up, wonder what we were doing all these years, and MMOs will die. This will probably happen around the time WoW closes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>37 isn&#8217;t old and yes you can! </p>
<p>I have this feeling that some day we&#8217;ll all wake up, wonder what we were doing all these years, and MMOs will die. This will probably happen around the time WoW closes.</p>
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		<title>By: plutosdad</title>
		<link>http://westkarana.com/index.php/2009/08/06/when-i-die/comment-page-1/#comment-15505</link>
		<dc:creator>plutosdad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 13:51:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://westkarana.com/?p=3976#comment-15505</guid>
		<description>Whenever i stop playing MMOs, I feel really good. All that time I spend on a multitude of other interests, and I feel more well-rounded so to speak.

I wonder if there was more opportunity to create rather than merely consume if the time in MMOs would be better? For instance, do people who play second life feel better when they stop than when they play? I don&#039;t know, but a world like that doesn&#039;t interest me anyway. It would have to have both, a lot of opportunity to be creative, while at the same time offering challenges and games.

Now I wish instead of computer science I went into biology or chemistry and was working on nanotech or life extension or something, but that&#039;s cause I&#039;m getting older and want to live forever. Hmm can I go back to school at 37?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whenever i stop playing MMOs, I feel really good. All that time I spend on a multitude of other interests, and I feel more well-rounded so to speak.</p>
<p>I wonder if there was more opportunity to create rather than merely consume if the time in MMOs would be better? For instance, do people who play second life feel better when they stop than when they play? I don&#8217;t know, but a world like that doesn&#8217;t interest me anyway. It would have to have both, a lot of opportunity to be creative, while at the same time offering challenges and games.</p>
<p>Now I wish instead of computer science I went into biology or chemistry and was working on nanotech or life extension or something, but that&#8217;s cause I&#8217;m getting older and want to live forever. Hmm can I go back to school at 37?</p>
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		<title>By: orlun</title>
		<link>http://westkarana.com/index.php/2009/08/06/when-i-die/comment-page-1/#comment-15480</link>
		<dc:creator>orlun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 19:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://westkarana.com/?p=3976#comment-15480</guid>
		<description>wow... Tipa you hit close to home with your &quot;make and finish furniture&quot; comment.  I quick EQ back in 2003 to return to my workshop.  I never went back to any games but I have built a couple houses full of cabinetry and furniture, moved to a new house and completed a new... even bigger workshop.  You&#039;d say I&#039;m heavy into crafting like I was in EQ.

Anyway.  No judgement in my reply... everyone should do what they enjoy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wow&#8230; Tipa you hit close to home with your &#8220;make and finish furniture&#8221; comment.  I quick EQ back in 2003 to return to my workshop.  I never went back to any games but I have built a couple houses full of cabinetry and furniture, moved to a new house and completed a new&#8230; even bigger workshop.  You&#8217;d say I&#8217;m heavy into crafting like I was in EQ.</p>
<p>Anyway.  No judgement in my reply&#8230; everyone should do what they enjoy.</p>
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		<title>By: BobH42</title>
		<link>http://westkarana.com/index.php/2009/08/06/when-i-die/comment-page-1/#comment-15479</link>
		<dc:creator>BobH42</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 19:09:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://westkarana.com/?p=3976#comment-15479</guid>
		<description>The question for me is which one of these statements fit you best:
1) You wish you had spent less time playing (fill in the blank)
2) You wish you hadn&#039;t spent any time playing (fill in the blank) since MMO&#039;s are a waste of your time

While I could see some people argue for #2 I&#039;d have to strenuously disagree at least in my case.  There is a place for leisure in life and I&#039;ve honestly confronted and solved a lot of RL problems due to my time in MMO&#039;s.  Granted, most of the take-away&#039;s I got from the MMO&#039;s were due to either the socialization or the meta-gaming (ie gaining new skills in coding while working on projects for the MMO&#039;s) but the MMO&#039;s provided the motivation to push those boundaries.  And even if I hadn&#039;t taken anything away what I did get was a lot of enjoyment - much more than if I&#039;d just sat and watched tv or read a mediocre book (there is very little in life that can compete with a GOOD book though ;) ).

I think what Tipa&#039;s complaining about though is #1.  The point is that a ton of MMO&#039;s are set up to have a grind to max level which lacks the teamwork and socialization aspects of the game followed by some sort of large-group raiding structure.  And because there&#039;s always going to be people that play the game more than you the situation arises where you&#039;re expected to play at least a large portion of the majority&#039;s schedule, if not by rule than by simply attempting to keep up and be a contributing raid member.  The more you succeed...the better you play...the more gear you get...the more all of these things ramp up those expectations on your time.

I&#039;ve had a couple times in my life where MMO&#039;s got in the way of the important things.  One was about 9-10 years ago with UO.  Nothing completely cringe-worthy but I started to look for ways to sneak in extra time between other obligations and those other obligations started to suffer.  The other time was about 5 years ago with EQ.  Again, pretty much the same story - nothing disastrous but bad enough that it was clear to me it was a problem.

Older and wiser (well, older at least) I started to notice that the scheduling for raids in WoW was putting pressure on my scheduling of things in RL.  I had to move my kids&#039; bedtime up 15 minutes to make the raids.  Not a big deal...they could honestly use the sleep...but it was a sign to me that things had taken a step beyond leisure into commitment.  And while some people DO have the time to &#039;commit&#039; to a hobby the vast majority of us do not.  I stopped playing WoW completely a few weeks ago after a 2-week step-down period where I trained my poor replacement to handle the loot module that I modified for our guild and will be canceling my account today.

I&#039;ll definitely miss the raiding - there&#039;s really nothing else like it that you can do with a smaller time commitment.  I liken it to playing on a soccer team...having your raid group really click together has the same feeling as having your soccer team really click.  You practice together, learn everyone&#039;s strengths, and then put it all together to succeed.  Unfortunately playing sports would be even more of a scheduling nightmare than MMO&#039;s have been for me - at least you can do an MMO at home after the kids go to bed.

So a month removed from walking away from WoW I can say that I don&#039;t regret playing.  I may wish that I hadn&#039;t played quite as much as I did but I&#039;d also like to have eaten out less this week and had healthier food.  But even though I wish I hadn&#039;t eaten what I did for lunch this week NOW I can tell you that I enjoyed every minute of it while I was eating the food and that I&#039;m still in very good health overall despite the fact that I indulged this week.  If MMO&#039;s are an &#039;indulgence&#039; for you and you keep your overall life in good health then enjoy it!  But if you think you should getting up from the MMO table because it&#039;s getting unhealthy then stand up and back away from the table.  Overindulgence of ANYTHING is bad and MMO&#039;s can be so tasty that people often don&#039;t realize they&#039;ve bitten off more than they can chew.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question for me is which one of these statements fit you best:<br />
1) You wish you had spent less time playing (fill in the blank)<br />
2) You wish you hadn&#8217;t spent any time playing (fill in the blank) since MMO&#8217;s are a waste of your time</p>
<p>While I could see some people argue for #2 I&#8217;d have to strenuously disagree at least in my case.  There is a place for leisure in life and I&#8217;ve honestly confronted and solved a lot of RL problems due to my time in MMO&#8217;s.  Granted, most of the take-away&#8217;s I got from the MMO&#8217;s were due to either the socialization or the meta-gaming (ie gaining new skills in coding while working on projects for the MMO&#8217;s) but the MMO&#8217;s provided the motivation to push those boundaries.  And even if I hadn&#8217;t taken anything away what I did get was a lot of enjoyment &#8211; much more than if I&#8217;d just sat and watched tv or read a mediocre book (there is very little in life that can compete with a GOOD book though ;) ).</p>
<p>I think what Tipa&#8217;s complaining about though is #1.  The point is that a ton of MMO&#8217;s are set up to have a grind to max level which lacks the teamwork and socialization aspects of the game followed by some sort of large-group raiding structure.  And because there&#8217;s always going to be people that play the game more than you the situation arises where you&#8217;re expected to play at least a large portion of the majority&#8217;s schedule, if not by rule than by simply attempting to keep up and be a contributing raid member.  The more you succeed&#8230;the better you play&#8230;the more gear you get&#8230;the more all of these things ramp up those expectations on your time.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve had a couple times in my life where MMO&#8217;s got in the way of the important things.  One was about 9-10 years ago with UO.  Nothing completely cringe-worthy but I started to look for ways to sneak in extra time between other obligations and those other obligations started to suffer.  The other time was about 5 years ago with EQ.  Again, pretty much the same story &#8211; nothing disastrous but bad enough that it was clear to me it was a problem.</p>
<p>Older and wiser (well, older at least) I started to notice that the scheduling for raids in WoW was putting pressure on my scheduling of things in RL.  I had to move my kids&#8217; bedtime up 15 minutes to make the raids.  Not a big deal&#8230;they could honestly use the sleep&#8230;but it was a sign to me that things had taken a step beyond leisure into commitment.  And while some people DO have the time to &#8216;commit&#8217; to a hobby the vast majority of us do not.  I stopped playing WoW completely a few weeks ago after a 2-week step-down period where I trained my poor replacement to handle the loot module that I modified for our guild and will be canceling my account today.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll definitely miss the raiding &#8211; there&#8217;s really nothing else like it that you can do with a smaller time commitment.  I liken it to playing on a soccer team&#8230;having your raid group really click together has the same feeling as having your soccer team really click.  You practice together, learn everyone&#8217;s strengths, and then put it all together to succeed.  Unfortunately playing sports would be even more of a scheduling nightmare than MMO&#8217;s have been for me &#8211; at least you can do an MMO at home after the kids go to bed.</p>
<p>So a month removed from walking away from WoW I can say that I don&#8217;t regret playing.  I may wish that I hadn&#8217;t played quite as much as I did but I&#8217;d also like to have eaten out less this week and had healthier food.  But even though I wish I hadn&#8217;t eaten what I did for lunch this week NOW I can tell you that I enjoyed every minute of it while I was eating the food and that I&#8217;m still in very good health overall despite the fact that I indulged this week.  If MMO&#8217;s are an &#8216;indulgence&#8217; for you and you keep your overall life in good health then enjoy it!  But if you think you should getting up from the MMO table because it&#8217;s getting unhealthy then stand up and back away from the table.  Overindulgence of ANYTHING is bad and MMO&#8217;s can be so tasty that people often don&#8217;t realize they&#8217;ve bitten off more than they can chew.</p>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://westkarana.com/index.php/2009/08/06/when-i-die/comment-page-1/#comment-15476</link>
		<dc:creator>Tesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 16:54:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://westkarana.com/?p=3976#comment-15476</guid>
		<description>Ah, but if you leave a signature on the Moon, where very little changes...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, but if you leave a signature on the Moon, where very little changes&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Tipa</title>
		<link>http://westkarana.com/index.php/2009/08/06/when-i-die/comment-page-1/#comment-15466</link>
		<dc:creator>Tipa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 13:11:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://westkarana.com/?p=3976#comment-15466</guid>
		<description>I still play MMOs, after all. I play them for fun and relaxation and socialization. I don&#039;t play games that require me to build any part of my life around them -- that&#039;s it.

As for dying, well, all accomplishment is for nothing in the end. I saw a documentary which said that 10,000 years after the death of humanity, Earth will show no traces we ever existed. All we really have is this moment, right? And all we can do is decide if we are spending this moment in a healthy way?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still play MMOs, after all. I play them for fun and relaxation and socialization. I don&#8217;t play games that require me to build any part of my life around them &#8212; that&#8217;s it.</p>
<p>As for dying, well, all accomplishment is for nothing in the end. I saw a documentary which said that 10,000 years after the death of humanity, Earth will show no traces we ever existed. All we really have is this moment, right? And all we can do is decide if we are spending this moment in a healthy way?</p>
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		<title>By: Brian 'Psychochild' Green</title>
		<link>http://westkarana.com/index.php/2009/08/06/when-i-die/comment-page-1/#comment-15465</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian 'Psychochild' Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 13:00:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://westkarana.com/?p=3976#comment-15465</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I judge the worth of what I do with how I grew as a person from doing it.&lt;/i&gt;

What does it mean when you die, though?  Even the best person in the world no longer (directly) influences the world when they&#039;ve passed on.  Not to get completely fatalistic here, but that was the situation you mentioned.  Eventually your furniture gets worn and broken, or your PBeM games become forgotten.  And, yes, your characters will eventually be wiped when the game they&#039;re in finally closes down.

The best you can hope for is for people to be improved by your actions, and those actions carry on into the future.  Maybe it&#039;s taking care of your children to carry on your (genetic) legacy.  Maybe it&#039;s a kind act that inspires someone else to be kind to others.  Perhaps it&#039;s helping someone else to realize an important goal.  This is why it&#039;s important not to ignore your loved ones.

But, people still need time off.  We need a bit of down time to calm our minds and focus ourselves.  So, all gaming (or other entertainment) isn&#039;t a waste.  Unless you let it dominate you and distract you from things that truly are important.  And, that threshold is different for different people.  Obviously Grim is happy to commit more time to a game than you are.  But, you probably have wisdom that comes with experience at this point, Tipa. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I judge the worth of what I do with how I grew as a person from doing it.</i></p>
<p>What does it mean when you die, though?  Even the best person in the world no longer (directly) influences the world when they&#8217;ve passed on.  Not to get completely fatalistic here, but that was the situation you mentioned.  Eventually your furniture gets worn and broken, or your PBeM games become forgotten.  And, yes, your characters will eventually be wiped when the game they&#8217;re in finally closes down.</p>
<p>The best you can hope for is for people to be improved by your actions, and those actions carry on into the future.  Maybe it&#8217;s taking care of your children to carry on your (genetic) legacy.  Maybe it&#8217;s a kind act that inspires someone else to be kind to others.  Perhaps it&#8217;s helping someone else to realize an important goal.  This is why it&#8217;s important not to ignore your loved ones.</p>
<p>But, people still need time off.  We need a bit of down time to calm our minds and focus ourselves.  So, all gaming (or other entertainment) isn&#8217;t a waste.  Unless you let it dominate you and distract you from things that truly are important.  And, that threshold is different for different people.  Obviously Grim is happy to commit more time to a game than you are.  But, you probably have wisdom that comes with experience at this point, Tipa. ;)</p>
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		<title>By: The Dead Gamer &#171; Bio Break</title>
		<link>http://westkarana.com/index.php/2009/08/06/when-i-die/comment-page-1/#comment-15464</link>
		<dc:creator>The Dead Gamer &#171; Bio Break</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 11:36:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://westkarana.com/?p=3976#comment-15464</guid>
		<description>[...] 7, 2009 by Syp    Over at West Karana, Tipa wrote a brief but insightful post about what MMORPGs leave us, in the end, when we leave them.  She includes this haunting comment [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 7, 2009 by Syp    Over at West Karana, Tipa wrote a brief but insightful post about what MMORPGs leave us, in the end, when we leave them.  She includes this haunting comment [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dblade</title>
		<link>http://westkarana.com/index.php/2009/08/06/when-i-die/comment-page-1/#comment-15463</link>
		<dc:creator>Dblade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 07:37:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://westkarana.com/?p=3976#comment-15463</guid>
		<description>Your accomplishments vanish no matter what, really, unless you are one of the few that make something worth reading. West Karana will just be a page on the internet wayback machine some day, its links broken, talking about things that will seem alien to people even 40 years from now. MMO&#039;s really are no different from anything in that regard. 

It&#039;s best really to make peace with your decisions. You can have regrets in anything. I spent one real life year in FFXI, and I accept it, the wasting of time with the fun. That&#039;s life, really.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your accomplishments vanish no matter what, really, unless you are one of the few that make something worth reading. West Karana will just be a page on the internet wayback machine some day, its links broken, talking about things that will seem alien to people even 40 years from now. MMO&#8217;s really are no different from anything in that regard. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s best really to make peace with your decisions. You can have regrets in anything. I spent one real life year in FFXI, and I accept it, the wasting of time with the fun. That&#8217;s life, really.</p>
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