Trying and failing to care about WoW-like MMOs.
Posted by Tipa in EverQuest, EverQuest 2, Final Fantasy XI, Lord of the Rings, MMOs, Vanguard, Warhammer: Age of Reckoning, Wizard 101, World of WarcraftI’ve had my level 75 cleric on Luclin for about… four months now. The level cap on EverQuest is 80. There have been three expansions since I last played her, The Serpent’s Spine, The Buried Sea and Secrets of Faydwer (I played TSS just long enough to get to level 75). A new expansion, Seeds of Destruction is about to come out.
And I don’t care. I haven’t even joined one group her level. Because I know what my job will be — sitting on my ass watching other people have fun while I press the heal button occasionally. Doesn’t matter what level or what expansion, my job was the same. Same as when I was a rogue. Druid was a little different; when the druid was my main, I could solo well, or be bad at stuff in a group. They’ve since made druids better in groups and given clerics the ability to solo somewhat, but really, my complete frustration at the mindless repetition of playing EverQuest, combined with the difficulty of finding a group, drove me to quit. I only came back for the Nostalgia group, but once again, I find I have zero interest in leveling, except insofar as I get to see areas of the game one last time. SoD may well raise the level cap to 100 and promise pie, but there is absolutely nothing that will get me to willingly join the grind again.
I almost quit EQ when I heard TSS would raise the cap to 75, but I enjoyed the people I raided with enough that I (with their help, of course), grinded out the levels. When I heard about SoF raising it to 80, that was when I quit EQ.
I played WoW enough in beta that I had no interest in playing it after release, but I eventually did, and started and finished the game in six months and quit before anything was known about the expansion. I was actually glad that there was a game out there (WoW) which was fun all the way through, and that you could actually *finish*. Naturally, they had to add a lot of grind to it but I was already gone by then. There was nothing they could really add to WoW to make it worth grinding for anyway.
I don’t have any interest in grinding levels in Vanguard, EverQuest 2, Lord of the Rings Online or any of the other WoW-likes out there. Zero, zilch, none. I log into EQ2 once every few weeks to say hi to my stuff. My alts sit before the RoK quest grind level and I see no reason whatsoever to do that twice (my troub and inq did it simultaneously so they only count at once). If Shadow of Odyssey raises the level cap, I’ll probably quit EQ2.
Just counting my main characters, I figure I have heard the ding 2270 times (counting AAs in the EQa). And that’s really low, since I have bunches of alts in every game I didn’t count. Also that doesn’t count DAoC, FFXI, LotRO or the others. Call it 3000 times counting everything.
That’s enough to become immune to ding. This old rat is no longer pushing the lever that sometimes but always longer than before, drops a sunflower seed into my salivating mouth.
I look at upcoming WoW-likes and wonder why they have to be that way. If the focus of Warhammer Online is city sieges and mass battles, then why level? Why not just get in on the city sieging from Day 1? If WoW’s raids are so great, why have all that cruft before you get to them? If EQ2′s lore is so terrific, why do we have to fight at all? Guild Wars lets you start a character at max level if you just want to do arena combat. That sounds like an EXCELLENT idea. Why doesn’t every game do that?
I’ve spent a few hours trying to figure out what could bring me to strap myself to the grinding wheel once more and I can’t think of anything. Not even friends or family.
I do know why I play MMOs, I’ve always known it. I play MMOs to tell stories, with myself as the main character. That Wizard 101 comic is part of the story I tell myself when I play (and there’s a lot more to that which will unfortunately have to wait until I unlock Marleybone). I had a story for leveling Dina and Dera through the RoK quest grind. I had a story for Etha as I went through EQ for the first time.
But the less WoW-likes let you tell your own stories and the more they force you to do whatever little evil treadmill schemes they’ve decided upon, the less I am interested. I play Wizard 101 a lot because, though it has levels, they don’t matter so much. A level 1 wizard could teleport right into Mooshu, the level 35+ world, and still contribute to the fight, because fighting isn’t based on your level, it’s based on your deck of cards, and being higher level just gives you more options. When i DO port into those fights, though being way lower level, I DO contribute.
It’s astonishing.
This is why I have started trolling the free-to-plays. Because WoW-likes don’t interest me any more. Not even the ones I play right now. I’m glad Cameron and others aren’t tired of them, but geez. These games are like punishments to me now. Punishments I pay for.
PvP? If, in Warhammer, I could make it so that every member of the opposing faction died, without hope of resurrection, if I could destroy all they had ever made, if I could make it so that not one brick of their homes rested upon another brick and all memory of their civilization was stamped out forever, I’d probably play. But instead they just reset things after awhile. Zzzzz. If I really wanted to PvP, I’d play a game that didn’t require you to level to do it. Like Call of Duty or Halo or TF2 something. WoW-likes and PvP will always be shaky partners, since levels and gear ensure few fights are purely about skill.
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Tipa,
You articulate perfectly what’s wrong with the current state of MMORPGs and I really think if the mainstream MMO industry clings to this model they’re essentially commiting creative (and corporate) suicide.
You may be where I am.
Since I went back to Guild Wars, I have struggled to think of going back to the long and winding road of the MMORPG.
The wife and myself took all of 2-3 weeks to max our Nightfall characters, and if anything it can be considered “training” to get to the real meat of the game.
Everything from factional gameplay, Dungeons, collection, and so much more (and don’t forget tons of varying PvP games)…and there is still a full quest log of goodies to do…even though we are at level 20.
The fact that we are max level, but still play those characters, says something.
At any point, I can log in one of my 6 alts and have a differing gameplay experience.
Healers, Necros, Warriors, Spellcasters
AoC was the final straw to me. It showed me that combat can be more fun, and leveling did not have to be a pain (until they killed the quick leveling and nerfed the fun of combat…lol).
I may try WAR, but I will be holding it to a different standard.
And if it is WoW/DAoC 2.0 as I believe it is, then it will be time to turn in the MMO badge of honor and move along.
(At least until Bioware’s MMO)
lol… I am not TOUCHING the WAR/WoW thing. I just read the Keen and Graev thread. I still call WAR a WoW-like in that it has the same sort of xp/leveling stuff as its relatives; a WoW-like is a game that someone who has played only WoW will find familiar.
I am adding Guild Wars to my F2P Game of the Month list. I might be writing these things for Massively if all works out well…
@Tipa
Haha…I dare you to say that on Keens or Heartless website…lol.
The fact we got to discussing Coke and Cigarettes, and a previous post dealt with Pizza (Keen had the gall to say there is someone in this world who does not like Pizza….HERESY!), seems WAR has this analogy dealing with “addictive” products.
Maybe WoW is the “Old Coke” and WAR will be “New Coke” smoking a Winston with Pepperoni!
@Openedge1,
You see how well things went for New Coke, right?
@Sejal
Yup
History repeats itself?
Personally, I am still having a great time in AoC. Much of it has to do with the large number of folks I have to play with and the rest has to do with the fact that I love a pvp-dangerous environment to play in. I wish that there was an MMO that I could level from pvp kills only. That would be perfect for me. I think what I’m looking for is a military style multiplayer combat game in the RPG genre. That would be perfect. If AoC doesn’t work out long term — I am not going back to MMO RPG games. I will find a multiplayer military combat that has some type of achievement via ranks or something like that. Is there a game like that for the PC?
I use to play this game for hours, but it was closed (it was actually a game some created as research about game addiction and it lost funding): http://chain-hq.com/
OMG!!!! It appears to have been rereleased!!!!
Team Fortress 2, Call of Duty, Planetside and that new one Sony announced that I already forgot the name of are all military PvP games. PvP should be about skill more than levels or equipment. If you beat me, it’s because you’re better, not because you grinded for N more hours.
@Open — well, heartless_ has posted here so he knows :) WAR is not a game that is being marketed to the kind of player I am, and I’m okay with that. I believe there are more to PvE games than a level grind followed by an endgame. The original EQ was a game without an end because they didn’t expect people to play EQ long enough to hit level 50. They originally thought the game would run just a year or two. Leveling was kind of random and broken (hell levels and such ftl) because it just wasn’t that important to them. I went to DAoC and RvR started at a fairly early level and there was no need to hit max level (and I never did, though I did do a lot of RvR). Game play has become far more streamlined these days.
The game is Donnybrook.
I like how the old SWG use to be where you mixed different profession skills.
I had a ranger/scout with some rifleman and beast master skills (ala Hunter). That (w/ the in depth crafting) were some of the best MMO mechanics.
Don’t play MMOs if you want to be able to “beat” a game. You’re wrong when you said that WoW can be *finished*. When you hit the max level a whole new world of content becomes available to you. Leveling is just a time for players to become acclimated with the game and learn how things work. If everybody was dumped into endgame content nothing could be accomplished. If you want a game that you can just finish, stick to console gaming and avoid mmos.
But I did finish WoW. I got to max level, cleared Molten Core, killed Onyxia and got a medium rank in the battlegrounds. When we started the faction grind for BWL, I quit, because it was so slow to grind faction as a holy priest that I increasingly couldn’t force myself to log in any more.
The MMO companies may want you to keep paying and paying when you have finished their game, but I see no reason to do so.
I’m right there with you Tipa.
I have found myself in the same place mentally. Sure the time I am spending with my friends is great but more and more I am no longer playing for the game. Getting to a new area is great but that is about all they have to offer me any more.
I find it increasingly difficult to understand why games are essentially creating barriers to fun. They are easy to spot yet they are still being built.
Like long grinds for rewards, be they items, abilities or access to new areas without instantly dieing and the inability to play with friends who have gotten ahead or behind my character without sacrificing something of my own.
Game mechanics that construct these walls have got to be thrown out.
Why do we really need levels when games like your Wizard 101 have shown there are other approaches, this is even a great time to throw in how advanced the thinking behind the orignal skills in SWG were. Ultimately that type of time = more abilities/options is more realistic anyway. Everyday in real life we pick up new knowledge and abilities. Some seem insignificant and others can change the foundation of our existance. But ultimately the longer we live the larger the pool of experiences we have to pull from to overcome new challenges.
In real life if I have a flat tire but have never learned how to operate a jack there is no reason to think I won’t be able to change the tire. I may have 20 friends who are also ignorant in the use of a jack but we know how to operate the tire iron so all we have to do is get the car up. Well with 20 of us we can probably just pick it up without the jack.
We did with numbers what would take another person who had the option of using a jack could do with one. However, the car was not fifty levels above us and able to one shot us all with an area attack.
Sure it took a large number of us to accomplish but it was possible because we could all contribute. I would love to see a main stream title get away from the level based system and the barriers they inevitably create.
Sejal!
I’m still banging about Erollisi Marr, not as a raider (due to living in the UK now) but playing EQ like we all did in the beginning: with and for friends and meeting each other’s goals.
You should pop back in for a visit, it’s free play for a couple more days.
Whats this free play business?
SOE has a summer program (nearly ended now) called Living Legacy that gives returning players several months free time and some uber gear appropriate for their level. We’ve had a few people in Nostalgia who joined as part of Living Legacy.
http://massively.com/tag/living-legacy
I didn’t get any option for a free trial.. Surprisingly enough I hadn’t uninstalled EQ.. I guess I just couldn’t bring myself to do it.. I uninstalled DDO, EQ2, Vanguard, Planetside, WoW… EQ just would have hurt too much. SO I figured what the hey.. I bought a one month renewal.. Its gonna take a while to patch.. I can’t remember the last time I logged in..
Well CRAP I wish I had seen that before I pulled out the credit card (><)
Stop by Luclin tonight at around 7PM Eastern time, join the /nostalgia channel, watch in awe as we kill Naggy and Vox yet again (/yawn)…
@Lishian: Tipa just rattled off a few; I’ll add the Battlefield 2 or 2142 to that list or Rainbow Six: Vegas2. Achievements and advancing through ranking systems has been the trend over the past few years in the FPS genre. The great thing is that your rank is similar to a level in that it’s something the others can see; some visible way for you to show off your advancement. However the new gear isn’t necessarily more “powerful” it just might give you more overall options. A brand-new player just installing the game can still take you out, and that’s more like it to me.
Levels Must DIE!
@Tipa: Donnybrook isn’t a game, it’s the tech test document Microsoft is working on for being able to have more players in FPS games with lots of players and lots of bullets (ie. tons of data packets) being sent. When finished, they’ve claimed the tech can be used not only for MMOFPS titles, but can also release a client to allow existing FPS titles suddenly have more players than they were designed for.
re: is GW an MMO? I say it isn’t but not for the reason everyone else does. Everyone else complains it’s only a multiplayer game, and towns are matchmaking lobbies, so it isn’t an MMO. There’s no open world, it’s all privately instanced for your group, etc. The reason I say it isn’t an MMO is simply out of habit: I’ve been playing since beta and ArenaNet constantly made a big deal that “this is not an MMO but it has features MMO’s do.” The gaming press ignored that and put up their magazine headlines of “OMG a FREE MMO!!!” and the rest is history. Seriously, I challenge anyone to go read magazine/web articles back in the day and see how they repeatedly said GW was not an MMO only to have that part of the discussion edited [...] in the headlines and highlights. The FAQ on their site still says it isn’t. Problem is, DDO uses a similar setup but it *is* marketed as an MMO. Other games have come along (Dungeon Runners off the top of my head) also use a lobby/match-making system (Huxley will be another) which many consider to *not* be MMO’s in the old sense. With the changing environs of the genre, perhaps in 2008 GW is an MMO?