Trying and failing to care about WoW-like MMOs.
Posted by Tipa in EverQuest, EverQuest 2, Final Fantasy XI, Lord of the Rings, MMOs, Vanguard, Warhammer: Age of Reckoning, Wizard 101, World of WarcraftI’ve had my level 75 cleric on Luclin for about… four months now. The level cap on EverQuest is 80. There have been three expansions since I last played her, The Serpent’s Spine, The Buried Sea and Secrets of Faydwer (I played TSS just long enough to get to level 75). A new expansion, Seeds of Destruction is about to come out.
And I don’t care. I haven’t even joined one group her level. Because I know what my job will be — sitting on my ass watching other people have fun while I press the heal button occasionally. Doesn’t matter what level or what expansion, my job was the same. Same as when I was a rogue. Druid was a little different; when the druid was my main, I could solo well, or be bad at stuff in a group. They’ve since made druids better in groups and given clerics the ability to solo somewhat, but really, my complete frustration at the mindless repetition of playing EverQuest, combined with the difficulty of finding a group, drove me to quit. I only came back for the Nostalgia group, but once again, I find I have zero interest in leveling, except insofar as I get to see areas of the game one last time. SoD may well raise the level cap to 100 and promise pie, but there is absolutely nothing that will get me to willingly join the grind again.
I almost quit EQ when I heard TSS would raise the cap to 75, but I enjoyed the people I raided with enough that I (with their help, of course), grinded out the levels. When I heard about SoF raising it to 80, that was when I quit EQ.
I played WoW enough in beta that I had no interest in playing it after release, but I eventually did, and started and finished the game in six months and quit before anything was known about the expansion. I was actually glad that there was a game out there (WoW) which was fun all the way through, and that you could actually *finish*. Naturally, they had to add a lot of grind to it but I was already gone by then. There was nothing they could really add to WoW to make it worth grinding for anyway.
I don’t have any interest in grinding levels in Vanguard, EverQuest 2, Lord of the Rings Online or any of the other WoW-likes out there. Zero, zilch, none. I log into EQ2 once every few weeks to say hi to my stuff. My alts sit before the RoK quest grind level and I see no reason whatsoever to do that twice (my troub and inq did it simultaneously so they only count at once). If Shadow of Odyssey raises the level cap, I’ll probably quit EQ2.
Just counting my main characters, I figure I have heard the ding 2270 times (counting AAs in the EQa). And that’s really low, since I have bunches of alts in every game I didn’t count. Also that doesn’t count DAoC, FFXI, LotRO or the others. Call it 3000 times counting everything.
That’s enough to become immune to ding. This old rat is no longer pushing the lever that sometimes but always longer than before, drops a sunflower seed into my salivating mouth.
I look at upcoming WoW-likes and wonder why they have to be that way. If the focus of Warhammer Online is city sieges and mass battles, then why level? Why not just get in on the city sieging from Day 1? If WoW’s raids are so great, why have all that cruft before you get to them? If EQ2′s lore is so terrific, why do we have to fight at all? Guild Wars lets you start a character at max level if you just want to do arena combat. That sounds like an EXCELLENT idea. Why doesn’t every game do that?
I’ve spent a few hours trying to figure out what could bring me to strap myself to the grinding wheel once more and I can’t think of anything. Not even friends or family.
I do know why I play MMOs, I’ve always known it. I play MMOs to tell stories, with myself as the main character. That Wizard 101 comic is part of the story I tell myself when I play (and there’s a lot more to that which will unfortunately have to wait until I unlock Marleybone). I had a story for leveling Dina and Dera through the RoK quest grind. I had a story for Etha as I went through EQ for the first time.
But the less WoW-likes let you tell your own stories and the more they force you to do whatever little evil treadmill schemes they’ve decided upon, the less I am interested. I play Wizard 101 a lot because, though it has levels, they don’t matter so much. A level 1 wizard could teleport right into Mooshu, the level 35+ world, and still contribute to the fight, because fighting isn’t based on your level, it’s based on your deck of cards, and being higher level just gives you more options. When i DO port into those fights, though being way lower level, I DO contribute.
It’s astonishing.
This is why I have started trolling the free-to-plays. Because WoW-likes don’t interest me any more. Not even the ones I play right now. I’m glad Cameron and others aren’t tired of them, but geez. These games are like punishments to me now. Punishments I pay for.
PvP? If, in Warhammer, I could make it so that every member of the opposing faction died, without hope of resurrection, if I could destroy all they had ever made, if I could make it so that not one brick of their homes rested upon another brick and all memory of their civilization was stamped out forever, I’d probably play. But instead they just reset things after awhile. Zzzzz. If I really wanted to PvP, I’d play a game that didn’t require you to level to do it. Like Call of Duty or Halo or TF2 something. WoW-likes and PvP will always be shaky partners, since levels and gear ensure few fights are purely about skill.
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Yeah its so bad for me I went back to the XBOX 360
I have had Guild Wars for over 3 years now and bought Prophecies, Factions and Nightfall, but actually never really played it until recently. I quite like that the leveling there pretty much is only the “extended newbie zone” content – most of the game is after you reached max level. The main storylines seems to be pretty good, although somewhat linear.
Well, GW isn’t a WoW-like and has been a powerful temptation to buy for quite some time. I want to play more of the games that try new things.
Raph Koster has some good stuff for this topic: http://www.raphkoster.com/2005/12/16/do-levels-suck/
Don’t forget to follow this link within the first post: http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/postmortem.shtml
Basics of it. Levels suck, but there IS NOT a better mechanic currently.
In class-based games, levels work out better, because they are viewed as a training period with your class of choice.
Personally, I hate levels, but they aren’t so terrible that I’ll ignore a good game because of them.
Also, I think you are completely wrong about the “I’d play if I could wipe them off the map”, because most people honestly wouldn’t care to put the time in if it all could be lost. None of your postings show me any indication that you would invest any time in a game that could potentially allow everything you’ve worked for be ruined while you are logged out. So, I just don’t see where your comment comes from other than to tell us you don’t want to level again.
WAR will be a great balance of being able to effect the world vs. being able to get back on your feet.
I didn’t mind leveling in Pool of Radiance or Nethack any more than I do now in MMOs. I wouldn’t play an MMO that dumped you straight into the end game. That would be like an offline game that only has boss battles.
I enjoy the journey. If I didn’t I’d stop playing MMOs. In fact most MMOs fall flat on their faces the moment you hit the cap as far as I’m concerned. I can list my personal exceptions that rule on two fingers (among linear MMOs).
Being a total fanboy, I would obviously recommend starting up EVE Online again. I wrote a post yesterday about new character creation which you may find helpful. EVE University (link is somewhere in that post) is an excellent, reputable corp devoted to teaching new players everything the tutorial doesn’t cover, including low and null sec PvP combat tactics, logistics, advanced mission running, the intricacies of the market, and more. Not only that, but by the time members “graduate” after six months to a year they most often have everything they need to be an effective member of a 0.0 alliance. In some cases they stay on to help the “next generation,” as it were. The aim of all this information, of course, is to help get you into an active, supportive community from the get-go, which seems to be your main problem with the game.
If you’re into text-based MMOs, I unhesitatingly recommend Urban Dead and MafiaMatrix. Both are free to play, and both have extremely active, generally polite communities. The games themselves aren’t half bad, either!
I still have fun leveling in most games though it depends on how many people I’m playing with. The most fun I’ve had in a MMO was leveling with a group of friends by only by doing dungeons in the Burning Crusade.
Age of Conan was a lot of fun leveling in the begining, but eventually was brought down by bad itemization and by making me go 2-3 levels without any new abilities.
(First post.) I agree with Tipa. Somehow all the ‘WoW-like’ games (that are also generally known as MMORPGs – Guild Wars is *not* called an MMORPG) have the same mind-numbing quality at least for me. You level, you kill 10 rats, you level, you run to Gandalf, you run to Conan, you level, you kill 10 alpha rats…
My most recent experience is AoC – I really disrecommend that game. It’s buggy, lacks contents. As for endgame – as somebody who does not like raiding, I don’t see any. I’d like to PvP but the PvP servers are real gankfests, where level 80-s just sit in level 25 questing zone and one-shot everybody so that they can’t level (kind of reminds me the WoW South Park episode).
I do love the way Guild Wars handles levels. Only 20 of them, and then a very nice story to complete. Plus you still have motivation to do things: to gather skills, etc. And, most importantly, you don’t have to PvE-level to do PvP. A bit pity it’s showing real signs of aging, though…
Good luck for you guys then :)
Tipa, you have very eloquently described the very reasons I stopped playing MMOs.. I tried WoW.. I played it the most out of all of the various games I tried.. I played DDO and swore I’d never load LotRO since it was made by the same people.. I played EQ2.. None of them had that missing element that the early days in EQ had.. I keep hoping that some day I’ll come across another game that captures – and holds – my attention.. But I really do not expect it..
Sejal, there is a game out there for us. It just takes finding it. There can’t be a new EQ because that whole genre has been drowned in look-alikes, and because those of us who valued the friendships we made just as much as the raids we completed are diluted across too many games, drowned in the sea of people who play MMOs as if they were the only important people in the game.
That said, miss ya :)
@Krabat — well, I consider GW an MMO. I guess there’s a dividing line there. Luckily, GW2 is being developed, and it will be exciting to see what they come up with. I did play GW in beta, but at the time I was in the WoW beta and there wasn’t time for both and I liked WoW better (at the time).
@Drugstore — I’ll likely restart EVE Online when they add ambulation in. Seems like the perfect time to get back into it. When I was playing EVE for the two week trial, it was the game I played the most. But I never felt connected enough to my ships to feel I had any stake in the EVE universe. EVE University is definitely a wonderful organization, a shining example of why the EVE community is so awesome.
@Yeebo — I don’t mind leveling if the game isn’t built around it. It’s having to level to get to the good stuff that I mind. Wizard 101 (my favorite current example) has levels, but your rank 1 spells are as effective against rank 6 monsters as anyone else’s. Leveling just gives you more options — and health and mana, which is important. For single player games like Pool of Radiance and Nethack, you don’t need to grind levels to have fun, the games are as fun at level 1 as at level 20. Plus they have a lot fewer levels. Age of Conan started with 80. Why? I cynically assume they chose that number so they could advertise they had more levels than World of Warcraft. Because leveling has become the measure of an MMO.
@Heartless — well, you’re right. I doubt I would put a lot of time into a game where I could lose everything for all time, at least past the moment when it was me doing the losing. PvP just reminds me of the struggles of Sisyphus, cursed to for all eternity roll a rock up a steep hill. Every time he nears the top, he stumbles and the rock rolls down to the bottom of the hill again, and he has to start all over. He will never get that rock to the other side. I guess I’m kind of agreeing with Goonswarm, whose idea of PvP is to harm you so bad, you quit the game. Now, that’s impact PvP :P But although I like that PvP makes a more realistically dangerous world in which to adventure, I personally am not that into it.
So basically, you want a revolution in terms of how PvE is represented? I can get with that. I’m inclined to agree with Cameron that I wish someone would come along and transcribe what makes a single-player RPG so great into a truly unique MMOG. Imagine if Oblivion COULD be made into an MMOG? There’s so many design hurdles to overcome, definitely, but if some company ever managed to do that without compromising what made that game so great I’d be all over it praising it as the second coming.
It’s out there, right now, in every bit of innovation the new games bring. There are plenty of MMOs that are not WoW-like, or not entirely so. But the WoW-likes have the majority of the market share. Because it is the best model for an MMO? It certainly seemed to best Asheron’s Call and Ultima Online, but I think it dominates the market because WoW dominates the market, and WoW has become so large that it has defined for most people what an MMO looks like.
Of one thing I’m sure — the huge, bazillion dollar AAA MMOs won’t dare risk their investment by doing anything very different. It’s going to be the smaller studios that blaze the trail that some larger company will copy.
Hey Tipa…
While you’re trolling free-to-plays, take a gander at Kingdom of Loathing (http://www.kingdomofloathing.com).
It’s a parody of the RPG (solo and MMO) with stick-figure art and a focus on the funny/bizarre.
Over the past 4 years it’s grown up a lot, where there’s an actual game under all the mockery. It’s a pretty fun romp.
I actually have played it (and blogged about it a little), but not for awhile. It might be worth another look, but as I remember it, it wasn’t very MMO-like. People could attack your campfire. I know they have a new underground, the Hobo Empire or something like that, which is supposed to be more multiplayer-ish; I’ll have to check it out again.
Thanks!
Tipa, I’m sure there is something out there somewhere that will have that appeal once again. I haven’t seen it.. As you had mentioned there are a large number of people out there who value the in game friendships more than the endless uber-camp raid style of play. From all the many years I played EQ, only three raids stand out in my mind (And one of those, we wiped.. Remember the night BEFORE we leared PoE to get into Time?)
I can’t count how many friends I made in game.. Too many to list.. If only someone would make a game where that mattered more than loot..
*Sigh* I wish I could edit my comment.. leared = cleared.. PROOFREAD, dammit.. PROOFREAD!
It’s all about frenetic action and hitting keys all the time instead of leisurely fun now.
I remember you used to sit in Nexus, behind the Shadowhaven portal, and give away free KEI… and as people came to get it, they’d get ported into Shadowhaven… Yeah, I remember when people played MMOs to relax. EQ was an aberration. Few people knew back when EQ launched that you were supposed to level fast, play hard and care for nobody but yourself. And I bet there is a game out there for us.
hehe.. Some people hated me for that.. Others thought it was the funniest thing they’d seen. Anyone who asked, I’d tell them how to get there.. But one ‘lady’ (for lack of a better term) told me how I was the meanest person in the game for making people port that way..
Another of my favorite ‘tricks’ was back in the day hanging out in Firiona Vie.. I’d given Ysall some component for JewelryCrafting.. She was trying to find my to drop some coin on me in repayment, but I didn’t want her to.. I went and ‘hid’ on top of one of the unfinished buildings there, dropped a coin on the ground (because you COULD back then) and cast Minor Illusion. Since she couldn’t find me, she actually PAID a 40 something Ranger to tell her where I was hiding.. Every time he’d run past the building I was on (DIRECTLY across from the bank) I’d haste him.. He got mad at me saying I was cheating in some way and logged out.. She never did manage to repay me for the gem or whatever it was ;)
Ahh the good old days..