I’ve never had a problem finding a fight, hit the instant action and there is almost always 10-20 guys fighting for control of this or that. I found the game *much* more interesting in a well put together squad as well. I would run a pilot/support character while the others did the killing.

But yeah, in the end its not an RPG, so the exploring/havesting/goofing off just isn’t there. I remember the good old days of EQ, sitting in the Ecomm tunnel just hanging out with everyone else. Jeez I miss that.

Is PS gearless? That’s not the impression I was given from reading forums and blog posts, but I doubt I’ll ever find out myself.

I’m sure an MMOFPS is possible, hell PS proved it’s “possible” but can it be compelling and worth a monthly fee? I like fragging people as much as the next guy but not all day. At least in an RPG environment I can explore, I can chat with friends, I can harvest or craft, or I can turn my brain off and murder innocent AI monsters. In a shooter, you… shoot.

Oh and don’t even mention Huxley, there’s no “massively multiplayer” to it.

Planetside is a good example a gearless(for the most part) PvP game. I’m quite fond of it actually.

They do? Where? WHERE? Sure, some small indie teams are quite willing to take chances, win or lose (huge lose in the case of Fury which you mentioned) but the Big Boys are after the money, and the money doesn’t come from skilled players.

I don’t care how good I may or may not be in WoW PvP (and I was reasonably good back when I played) if I had better gear than you I could spam 1,2,3 and not even look at the screen. I win, period.

But, WoW is a gear-centric game, they’ve never made bones about that nor claimed otherwise. So it works within that limited context. I also realize that if it comes to true PvP (ie. player only skill) then I’m limited to a niche game with a small audience (ie. not many people to play with). That’s why I’m more in favor of a (character) skills-based game where player skill is a factor, but something you can grow into and learn rather than *boom one-shot kill from a high-level ganker* and get discouraged. The deciding factor would be which character skills you use, not your level and certainly not your gear.

My impression of EVE is that it uses a system somewhat like I’m describing. Old SWG did, Ryzom did, GW2 most likely will (otherwise it won’t really be GW anymore) and the just-announced Earthrise will be using that scheme too.

My point is the developers have gone out of their way to make skill a bigger decider than gear. I honostly couldn’t give you an example of *how* they do this, but it does seem to come out in the game play. I would love to recommend Fury to people, but in the end its just not *that* good. I love a company who tries to innovate in what I see as a pretty stagnant part of the industry.

Another game that needs to be mentioned is A Tale in the Desert. Its an amazing game that never got the attention it deserved.

And finally, my current obsession, Project Torque. Its a mmo racer that actually works pretty well. Has a bright future as well, with promises of a new track a week and lots of cars, paint jobs and the like.

That said, when you say a game should start with PvE and build into PvP… how exactly? On the one hand, I’m all for more advanced AI (at least for mobs that are supposed to be intelligent) rather than the stand still and take turns playing Rock ‘em Sock ‘em Robots til one of us drops. Better AI would lead to PvP against more unpredictable human players as less a culture shock than the polar extremes we have now, going from completely stupid mobs to players running all over, with no middle ground to practice up on. On the other hand, it’s a design philosophy that players want to know they’re (almost) always going to win, and so the stupid AI wins over the superior AI, unfortunately.

Again, I’ll give Guild Wars props in that department: their AI is hardly genius but it’s more ruthless and “hardcore” than you’d see in WoW/EQ2. The mobs will gladly kite you into other groups of mobs, they’ll run out of your AoE attacks, and other behavior that would fall into the “duh” category for human players, so switching to PvP isn’t as difficult there.

Wanna make me a happy camper? Get rid of levels, first and foremost. For PvP we may not be on equal footing due to character/skill/gear progression (it’s an RPG after all) but there won’t be any of this lvl 70 corpse camping a lvl 5 nooblet shit. The noob will at least have a fighting chance (pun intended) to escape or *gasp* even win if he’s lucky. Give me better AI in the NPC’s, even have them smack-talk me a bit (/hugs to AC2…) and give me scenarios where even if I’m a die-hard PvE-er, the PvP will have enough meaning or impact that I will *want* to participate either directly fighting or indirectly somehow and in a means that encourages teamwork and interaction with the other players.

XBox Live

Hmmm…
And your example happens to be an Xbox based / PS3 game.
It is inherent to be competitive on Xbox live…so, this is perfect “PvP”

But, it seems all attempts at a good PvP system has failed (Archlord, Fury, etc.)
The only really good RPG based game for PvP seems to be Guild Wars. Some people do like WoW, EQ2 or Lineage 2 even for PvP…
But, the gankfest issues are too common. Rulesets either do not exist or are not respected. Guild Wars eliminated this with their matching system. No major twinking exists, and it is fast and fun..(and the only PvP I have ever liked…)
There is no doubt…games that offer Roleplay servers seems to have the larger populations…and PvP is an afterthought…

But, that is just it…”after thought”…
What if the game is built from the ground up to offer the PvE/PvP based gameplay..supposedly Aion offers this. AoC is suppose to offer a beginning PvE to gradually build up to PvP…and it is stated that WAR also will do this…
The thought interests me…but, I will always be thinking in the back of my mind about the Lineage 2 demo I did, where another PC runs up to me, looking quite nice in his plain clothes outfit…I bow, say “Hello”…..
BAM
One hit, your dead…

Well then…logoff…/quit

The frontier contained a number of keeps which could be attacked and captured, and then your guild banner would hang from it as long as they were willing to pay for it or until it was recaptured. These keeps could contain artifacts, the ownership of which would provide benefits to your faction.

There was one easily reachable place in the Frontier not far from the Hibernia border called Emain Mache (or something like that), and usually world PvP would happen there. They did a big content addition to the battlegrounds and made different battlegrounds for different levels, and after that world PvP mostly disappeared and moved to the battlegrounds, which is where it was when I left DAoC.

The most innovative thing about that — and you can see the seeds of WoW PvP there — was the game’s web site, which tracked individual, guild and realm victories, so you could rank yourself in many different ways, there were lots of ways to participate in PvP — being a solo stealthed killer, going about in a group killing people on the frontier, laying siege to keeps with your guild, or casual, quick battlegrounds.

It really was incredibly fun, but I felt it wasn’t very exciting. Even though almost all fighting was PvP and even though there was a lot of out-of-game fun on the IGN boards — it felt like “EQ Lite” to me and I eventually got bored and returned to EQ1.

In WoW, my first PvP, aside from random high level people running through the newbie grounds, was world PvP where people would be trying to take the Crossroads in the Barrens, and then the massive battles at Tarren Mills. That eventually turned into the battlegrounds, which were pretty frustrating, since as a healer, I’d be instantly killed by Alliance people. So while everyone was out earning honor and having fun, I’d be waiting for respawn… I rerolled as an Alliance rogue and had a LOT more fun in battlegrounds but that eventually got boring so I left WoW for EQ2.

I’ve tried PvP, but I just find it — boring after awhile. Just seemed so rote and by the numbers all the time. Keen’s posts about PotBS make me wonder if there is a better way. I tried EvE but didn’t PvP there; I was still feeling my way around when my free trial ended.

In the end I just realized that — at least in the games I tried — you can’t have any sort of PvE focus because it’s just going to get in the way of PvP. When i first read about WAR, it seemed like this was the direction in which it was going — pure PvP from day one, you would walk out of your newbie field and then you would be part of the battle and there would be no killing ten rats, you would be on the front lines, soldier. Now I hear about a shifting PvE/PvP game, which seems pointed right at WoW players who will be expecting the WoW experience. I wish they had ignored WoW.

I’ll try it, of course. I liked WoW. Wasn’t a long term game for me but I did enjoy it while I played. WAR might have some magic combination of elements that really ‘clicks’, but right now it sounds so similar to DAoC that I wonder if I will find it new.

Currently, no they don’t. I see no reason that devs in the future could find a way to intermingle the two in a fun and compelling way though.

What syncaine @ Hardcore Casual calls “Impact PvP” I call “Meaningful PvP” (if I’m following his concept anyway). In other words, make the PvP impact, or be meaningful to, the PvE players, and vice-versa.

Example: Guild Wars has a few uber elite areas that used to only be open if the PvP players of your “world” (aka nation: US, EU, Asia) had won enough matches to gain “favor of the gods” for that nation. So if the US PvP-ers got us favor, the US PvE-ers could go to the Underworld, Fissure of Woe, etc. where the best stuff was. Later, the PvE-ers wanted to contribute to the gain (or loss) of favor so the devs added that ability as well.

If I understand RvR from DAOC (and probably WAR) it was a similar concept?

Tabula Rasa’s constant war between the humans and Bane mean sometimes outposts will be under Bane control, therefore losing those NPC’s and all they mean to the PvE players. However, that’s still PvE, you’re not fighting Bane players.

My first MMO PvP was in WoW when I was a lowly level 21 rogue in Ashenvale and some Horde attacked the town. Sure, some high-level Alliance arrived eventually to save us, but in the interest of role-playing (or whatever) I flagged up and defended my night elven town even though I knew I’d be of little use. Actually, I had no idea just *how* little use I’d be and how quickly (insta-death!) I would be slaughtered by the high-level Horde invaders, but it made me feel good that I died for a good cause. Now if WoW took that further and gave the PvE players a true, meaningful reason to contribute even indirectly, I think that would help integrate the two camps. Maybe.